Otto
What we need to calculate is the NET cost to IFIP ie what the WG pays less the royalty to IFIP.
How IFIP splits the money internally between TCs & WGs and IFIP's central costs is an IFIP issue not a matter for the publisher.
It appears to me
Route A (IFIP LNCS)
5850 - 1444 = 4406
Route B (Standard LNCS)
4242 - 0 = 4242
Route C (IFIP main series)
4759 - 3000 = 1759 (maximum)
(No royalty on bulk sale and 12% on sale price of full price if/when all sold)
Otto - if your figures are correct and I do not have the information to hand this means that after 500 euros of royalties the IFIP main series is cheapest for the IFIP "family".
If this is correct then we have to find a way of funnelling more of the royalty back to the TC/WGs to reduce conference costs. For example in the above example why not give 10% of the royalty to the TC/WG that earns it. In most cases (except where full price sales are very low - which is very unusual) the overall cost to the TC/WG would be less than any LNCS price.
PROPOSAL -
Royalties come in to IFIP as the books sell. An increased proportion should be given to TC/WGs. Once a steady state is reached, TCs could subsidise future events with royalties from past events. Everybody wins.
Note - Assuming these figures are correct, the most expensive route is IFIP/LNCS - which looks to be a rip-off. Basically rather than sharing profits with IFIP for offering the publisher a series to publish with the reduction of office work and marketing etc. involved in that, LNCS add a surcharge and pass it back to IFIP less a handling charge of 10%!
Good wishes
Roger
********************************************
Dr Roger Johnson
Dean, Faculty of Social Science &
Honorary Secretary, International Federation for Information Processing
Birkbeck College, Malet Street, London WC1E 7HX UK.
Telephone: (+44) 20 7631 6709
FAX: (+44) 20 7631 6727
URL: http://www.dcs.bbk.ac.uk/%7Ergj
College location:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?P2M?P=wc1e7hx&Z=1
IFIP: http://www.ifip.or.at/
********************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Otto Spaniol [mailto:spaniol@informatik.rwth-aachen.de] Sent: 21 October 2005 13:08 To: Spaniol; Eduard Dundler; Roger Johnson; Klaus Brunnstein; turner@cs.clemson.edu; Amy.Brais@springer.com; Ifip-Tc6Linformatik.Rwth-Aachen.De Subject: LNCS Prices once again
Dear all,
there was another mistake, sor for that ("Ifip regular" was meant to be
""standard LNCS").
Otto
--------------------------------------
Proceedings publication example:
Assumptions: 250 pages; 151 copies taken by the organisor;
estimated 400 copies produced in total (out of which are 50 complimentary
copies if IFIP LNCS is used).
A1. Total cost for the organisor with "IFIP LNCS":
Organisor pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free.
Total price: 101 x 58 = 5,858 EURO
A2: Royalties to IFIP with "IFIP LNCS":
10 percent of estimated 350 books: 0.10 x 350 x 58 = 2,030.20 EURO
10 percent of estimated 249 books: 0.10 x 249 x 58 = 1,444.20 EURO
The second line would be valid if no royalties would be paid for the bulk
copies; which line is the correct one?
B1. Total cost for the organisor with "Standard LNCS":
Organisor pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free.
Total price: 101 x 42 = 4,242.00 EURO
B2: Royalties to IFIP with "Standard LNCS":
None at all.
C1. Total cost for the organisor with "Regular IFIP series":
Total price: 151 x 31.52 = 4,759.52 EURO
C2: Royalties to IFIP with "Regular IFIP series":
12 percent of 400 books (list price!): 0.12 x 400 x 100 EURO =
4,800.00 EURO
12 percent of 400 books (bulk price!): 0.12 x 400 x 31.52 EURO =
1,512.96 EURO
Is has been assumed here that all of the 400 produced copies would be sold.
I assume that royalty paid would be a mixture of price for bulk sales
and for books sold on the free market (whose number could be very near
to zero
since the normal list price is 125 USD, i.e. approx. 100 EURO, which is
outrageously high) and that no rroyalties will be paid for books which
have been produced but can nver be sold due to high prices.
This needs explanation.
Dear Otto, Roger, all,
My calculation is quite different. See below.
Proceedings publication example (same as Otto's example):
Assumptions: 250 pages; 151 copies taken by the organiser; Estimated 400 copies produced in total (out of which are 50 complimentary copies if LNCS is used).
A1. Total cost for the organiser with "IFIP LNCS":
Organiser pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free.
Total price: 101 x 42 x 0.6 = 2,545 EURO
This takes into account the 40% discount indicated in Amy Brais's email. However, this discount used to be higher. Here is the usual text from Springer (if it's still valid?):
"A standard number of 50 free copies of the book are given to the editor(s). Additional copies needed for distribution at the meeting or to contributing authors etc. can be bought at a discount of (at least) 45 % off the list price; this discount is increased to 47.5 % or 50 %, etc. if at least 100 copies or at least 200 copies, etc. are bought (respectively). For proceedings with more than some 750 pages, the aforementioned discounts can be (slightly) improved as well as the number of free copies."
Note also that the table from Amy Brais (from Springer) mixes list prices (for both LNCS) and bulk prices (for IFIP primary series), which is non sense. This is the reason why the primary LNCS series looked so cheap!
Moreover, I have used the same price for IFIP LNCS as standard LNCS. We have to verify with Springer that the bulk price for standard LNCS and IFIP LNCS are indeed equal (even though the list prices are not!), because there are no royalties to IFIP on bulk sales for IFIP LNCS.
For non bulk sales, standard LNCS will cost 42 EURO and IFIP LNCS 58 EURO (note the huge difference, which is much more than 10%, which are the royalties due to IFIP on estimated non bulk sales)
A2: Royalties to IFIP with "IFIP LNCS":
10 % of estimated 249 books: 0.10 x 249 x 58 = 1,444 EURO (Don't know how Springer will estimate the number of sales!)
A1 - A2 = 1,101 EURO
B1. Total cost for the organiser with "Standard LNCS":
Organiser pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free.
Total price: 101 x 42 x 0.6 = 2,545 EURO (Again 40% discount, but it is likely to be higher)
B2: Royalties to IFIP with "Standard LNCS":
None.
B1 - B2 = 2,545 EURO
C1. Total cost for the organiser with "Primary IFIP series":
Total price: 151 x 31.52 = 4,760 EURO
C2: Royalties to IFIP with "Primary IFIP series":
12 % of actual 249 books (list price!): 0.12 x 249 x 100 EURO = 2988 EURO Note: It is unlikely that Springer will sell 249 books at this price! This may mean that IFIP will get almost no royalties in fact!
C1 - C2 = 1,172 EURO
Anyway, solutions A and B are expected to be equivalent for the organiser and much better than solution C.
Solution A is better than solution B for IFIP, because IFIP gets royalties.
For solution C to be comparable to solutions A and B from the organiser's viewpoint, IFIP would have to pay part of the proceedings. IFIP could do it by redistributing all its royalties to the organiser. But even in this case, this would not suffice!
Best regards, Guy
At 14:55 +0100 21/10/05, Roger Johnson wrote:
Otto
What we need to calculate is the NET cost to IFIP ie what the WG pays less the royalty to IFIP.
How IFIP splits the money internally between TCs & WGs and IFIP's central costs is an IFIP issue not a matter for the publisher.
It appears to me
Route A (IFIP LNCS) 5850 - 1444 = 4406
Route B (Standard LNCS)
4242 - 0 = 4242
Route C (IFIP main series)
4759 - 3000 = 1759 (maximum) (No royalty on bulk sale and 12% on sale price of full price if/when all sold)
Otto - if your figures are correct and I do not have the information to hand this means that after 500 euros of royalties the IFIP main series is cheapest for the IFIP "family".
If this is correct then we have to find a way of funnelling more of the royalty back to the TC/WGs to reduce conference costs. For example in the above example why not give 10% of the royalty to the TC/WG that earns it. In most cases (except where full price sales are very low - which is very unusual) the overall cost to the TC/WG would be less than any LNCS price.
PROPOSAL -
Royalties come in to IFIP as the books sell. An increased proportion should be given to TC/WGs. Once a steady state is reached, TCs could subsidise future events with royalties from past events. Everybody wins.
Note - Assuming these figures are correct, the most expensive route is IFIP/LNCS - which looks to be a rip-off. Basically rather than sharing profits with IFIP for offering the publisher a series to publish with the reduction of office work and marketing etc. involved in that, LNCS add a surcharge and pass it back to IFIP less a handling charge of 10%!
Good wishes
Roger
Dr Roger Johnson Dean, Faculty of Social Science & Honorary Secretary, International Federation for Information Processing Birkbeck College, Malet Street, London WC1E 7HX UK. Telephone: (+44) 20 7631 6709 FAX: (+44) 20 7631 6727 URL: http://www.dcs.bbk.ac.uk/%7Ergj College location: http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?P2M?P=wc1e7hx&Z=1 IFIP: http://www.ifip.or.at/
-----Original Message----- From: Otto Spaniol [mailto:spaniol@informatik.rwth-aachen.de] Sent: 21 October 2005 13:08 To: Spaniol; Eduard Dundler; Roger Johnson; Klaus Brunnstein; turner@cs.clemson.edu; Amy.Brais@springer.com; Ifip-Tc6Linformatik.Rwth-Aachen.De Subject: LNCS Prices once again
Dear all,
there was another mistake, sor for that ("Ifip regular" was meant to be ""standard LNCS").
Otto
Proceedings publication example:
Assumptions: 250 pages; 151 copies taken by the organisor; estimated 400 copies produced in total (out of which are 50 complimentary copies if IFIP LNCS is used).
A1. Total cost for the organisor with "IFIP LNCS":
Organisor pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free. Total price: 101 x 58 = 5,858 EURO
A2: Royalties to IFIP with "IFIP LNCS":
10 percent of estimated 350 books: 0.10 x 350 x 58 = 2,030.20 EURO 10 percent of estimated 249 books: 0.10 x 249 x 58 = 1,444.20 EURO The second line would be valid if no royalties would be paid for the bulk copies; which line is the correct one?
B1. Total cost for the organisor with "Standard LNCS":
Organisor pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free. Total price: 101 x 42 = 4,242.00 EURO
B2: Royalties to IFIP with "Standard LNCS":
None at all.
C1. Total cost for the organisor with "Regular IFIP series":
Total price: 151 x 31.52 = 4,759.52 EURO
C2: Royalties to IFIP with "Regular IFIP series":
12 percent of 400 books (list price!): 0.12 x 400 x 100 EURO =
4,800.00 EURO 12 percent of 400 books (bulk price!): 0.12 x 400 x 31.52 EURO = 1,512.96 EURO
Is has been assumed here that all of the 400 produced copies would be sold. I assume that royalty paid would be a mixture of price for bulk sales and for books sold on the free market (whose number could be very near to zero since the normal list price is 125 USD, i.e. approx. 100 EURO, which is outrageously high) and that no rroyalties will be paid for books which have been produced but can nver be sold due to high prices. This needs explanation.
ifip-tc6 mailing list ifip-tc6@lists.RWTH-Aachen.DE http://MailMan.RWTH-Aachen.DE/mailman/listinfo/ifip-tc6
Dear Guy, Roger, and others,
first, thank you very much, Roger and Guy, for your modifications of my calculation example. Guy's example is attached below since apparently it was not sent to Eduard and to Joe. Morevover it might be the "most correct" example for the moment being but even here there are some uncertainties due to "imperfect" Springer information (however, I'm very glad that we got (!) such an information; why did it need so much time??).
What we have to see from this small example is the following: (I'm very glad that my approach to make small example stimulated a lot of discussion and of insight. This shows that it is sometimes good to be pragmatic).
A. Figures for the three alternatives are largely depending on the choosen alternative, the number of printed copies, the bulk size, the estimation of books sold, the awfully high list prices,... Nevertheless, the price which has to to be paid by IFIP is not terribly different in the different cases (if we compare it for example with the registration fee of 600 EURO per person (!) for PWC'05 in Colmar).
B. The comparison between "IFIP-LNCS", "LNCS", and "standard IFIP" is largely of historical interest: "LNCS" should not be choosen for an IFIP event (and this can be avoided if the condition for "IFIP-LNCS" will be fair when compared to "LNCS"). "IFIP-LNCS" is discouraged from now on. It is only tolerated for conference series which have a long tradition with that publishing scheme (by the way: this scheme was somewhat illegal but here the same applies as with the "principaute of Monaco": its richness is due to piracy and to criminal acts in the middle age but now it has become perfectly legal by means of the purification effected by several centuries of history). IFIP and IFIP-TC6 should concentrate on "standard IFIP".
C. Even if we are not at all satisfied with the actual publication contract we have to accept the Roman principle "Pacta sunt servanda". This means that "standard IFIP" is the publisher to be choosen. A strong Digital Library will be unavoidable. This will be discussed by a working group together with IFIP executive Board on Decmber 9 in London in the GoodEnough club (isn't that a nice name for a meeting location ? ;-) )
Best regards Otto
----
Guy Leduc's calcualtion:
Proceedings publication example (same as Otto's example):
Assumptions: 250 pages; 151 copies taken by the organiser; Estimated 400 copies produced in total (out of which are 50 complimentary copies if LNCS is used).
A1. Total cost for the organiser with "IFIP LNCS":
Organiser pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free. Total price: 101 x 42 x 0.6 = 2,545 EURO
This takes into account the 40% discount indicated in Amy Brais's email. However, this discount used to be higher. Here is the usual text from Springer (if it's still valid?):
"A standard number of 50 free copies of the book are given to the editor(s). Additional copies needed for distribution at the meeting or to contributing authors etc. can be bought at a discount of (at least) 45 % off the list price; this discount is increased to 47.5 % or 50 %, etc. if at least 100 copies or at least 200 copies, etc. are bought (respectively). For proceedings with more than some 750 pages, the aforementioned discounts can be (slightly) improved as well as the number of free copies."
Note also that the table from Amy Brais (from Springer) mixes list prices (for both LNCS) and bulk prices (for IFIP primary series), which is non sense. This is the reason why the primary LNCS series looked so cheap!
Moreover, I have used the same price for IFIP LNCS as standard LNCS. We have to verify with Springer that the bulk price for standard LNCS and IFIP LNCS are indeed equal (even though the list prices are not!), because there are no royalties to IFIP on bulk sales for IFIP LNCS.
For non bulk sales, standard LNCS will cost 42 EURO and IFIP LNCS 58 EURO (note the huge difference, which is much more than 10%, which are the royalties due to IFIP on estimated non bulk sales)
A2: Royalties to IFIP with "IFIP LNCS":
10 % of estimated 249 books: 0.10 x 249 x 58 = 1,444 EURO
(Don't know how Springer will estimate the number of sales!)
A1 - A2 = 1,101 EURO
B1. Total cost for the organiser with "Standard LNCS":
Organiser pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free. Total price: 101 x 42 x 0.6 = 2,545 EURO
(Again 40% discount, but it is likely to be higher)
B2: Royalties to IFIP with "Standard LNCS":
None.
B1 - B2 = 2,545 EURO
C1. Total cost for the organiser with "Primary IFIP series":
Total price: 151 x 31.52 = 4,760 EURO
C2: Royalties to IFIP with "Primary IFIP series":
12 % of actual 249 books (list price!): 0.12 x 249 x 100 EURO =
2988 EURO Note: It is unlikely that Springer will sell 249 books at this price! This may mean that IFIP will get almost no royalties in fact!
C1 - C2 = 1,172 EURO
Anyway, solutions A and B are expected to be equivalent for the organiser and much better than solution C.
Solution A is better than solution B for IFIP, because IFIP gets royalties.
For solution C to be comparable to solutions A and B from the organiser's viewpoint, IFIP would have to pay part of the proceedings. IFIP could do it by redistributing all its royalties to the organiser. But even in this case, this would not suffice!