Dear Amy (and all others),
thank you so much for you long awaited information concerning the publication prices. I have somme coments, questions and an example (in order to see whether I understood it). When producing such an example, one sees that the conditions depend on page number, bulk sales number etc. for the three variants of publication.
Comment: The list prices for "Regular IFIP are outrageously high". (125 USD for a book of 250 pages; instead as of 31,52 EURO if you take a bulk sale of 151 copies). Under such conditions, nobody will buy such a book "on the free market".
Concerning Royalties: Question 1: Is the calculation based on the list prices or on the bulk sales price? Question 2: In the case of IFIP LNCS: Are royalties paid even for the 50 complimentary copies (probably not). Question 3: In the case of IFIP LNCS: Are royalties paid for the bulk sale?
The answer to these questons has some impact on my example (which comes below).
Best regards and thank you very much for the information Otto Spaniol
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Proceedings publication example:
Assumptions: 250 pages; 151 copies taken by the organisor; estimated 400 copies produced in total (out of which are 50 complimentary copies if IFIP LNCS is used).
A1. Total cost for the organisor with "IFIP LNCS":
Organisor pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free.
Total price: 101 x 58 = 5,858 EURO
A2: Royalties to IFIP with "IFIP LNCS":
10 percent of estimated 350 books: 0.10 x 350 x 58 = 2,030.20 EURO 10 percent of estimated 249 books: 0.10 x 249 x 58 = 1,444.20 EURO
The second line would be valid if no royalties would be paid for the bulk copies; which line is the correct one?
B1. Total cost for the organisor with "IFIP Regular":
Total price: 151 x 42 = 6,342.00 EURO
B2: Royalties to IFIP with "IFIP Regular":
None at all.
C1. Total cost for the organisor with "Regular IFIP series":
Total price: 151 x 31.52 = 4,759.52 EURO
C2: Royalties to IFIP with "Regular IFIP series":
12 percent of 400 books (list price!): 0.12 x 400 x 100 EURO = 4,800.00 EURO 12 percent of 400 books (bulk price!): 0.12 x 400 x 31.52 EURO = 1,512.96 EURO
Is has been assumed here that all of the 400 produced copies would be sold. I assume that royalty paid would be a mixture of price for bulk sales and for books sold on the free market (whose number could be very near to zero since the normal list price is 125 USD, i.e. approx. 100 EURO, which is outrageously high) and that no rroyalties will be paid for books which have been produced but can nver be sold due to high prices. This needs explanation.
Dear all,
Guy Leduc informed me that my example has some flaw since "Springer LNCS" will also offer 50 free copies. Thus I have to adopt my calculation example somewhat (see below).
Best regards Otto
Proceedings publication example:
Assumptions: 250 pages; 151 copies taken by the organisor; estimated 400 copies produced in total (out of which are 50 complimentary copies if IFIP LNCS is used).
A1. Total cost for the organisor with "IFIP LNCS":
Organisor pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free.
Total price: 101 x 58 = 5,858 EURO
A2: Royalties to IFIP with "IFIP LNCS":
10 percent of estimated 350 books: 0.10 x 350 x 58 = 2,030.20 EURO 10 percent of estimated 249 books: 0.10 x 249 x 58 = 1,444.20 EURO
The second line would be valid if no royalties would be paid for the bulk copies; which line is the correct one?
B1. Total cost for the organisor with "IFIP Regular":
Organisor pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free.
Total price: 101 x 42 = 4,242.00 EURO
B2: Royalties to IFIP with "IFIP Regular":
None at all.
C1. Total cost for the organisor with "Regular IFIP series":
Total price: 151 x 31.52 = 4,759.52 EURO
C2: Royalties to IFIP with "Regular IFIP series":
12 percent of 400 books (list price!): 0.12 x 400 x 100 EURO = 4,800.00 EURO 12 percent of 400 books (bulk price!): 0.12 x 400 x 31.52 EURO = 1,512.96 EURO
Is has been assumed here that all of the 400 produced copies would be sold. I assume that royalty paid would be a mixture of price for bulk sales and for books sold on the free market (whose number could be very near to zero since the normal list price is 125 USD, i.e. approx. 100 EURO, which is outrageously high) and that no rroyalties will be paid for books which have been produced but can nver be sold due to high prices. This needs explanation.
Dear all,
there was another mistake, sor for that ("Ifip regular" was meant to be ""standard LNCS").
Otto --------------------------------------
Proceedings publication example:
Assumptions: 250 pages; 151 copies taken by the organisor; estimated 400 copies produced in total (out of which are 50 complimentary copies if IFIP LNCS is used).
A1. Total cost for the organisor with "IFIP LNCS":
Organisor pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free.
Total price: 101 x 58 = 5,858 EURO
A2: Royalties to IFIP with "IFIP LNCS":
10 percent of estimated 350 books: 0.10 x 350 x 58 = 2,030.20 EURO 10 percent of estimated 249 books: 0.10 x 249 x 58 = 1,444.20 EURO
The second line would be valid if no royalties would be paid for the bulk copies; which line is the correct one?
B1. Total cost for the organisor with "Standard LNCS":
Organisor pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free.
Total price: 101 x 42 = 4,242.00 EURO
B2: Royalties to IFIP with "Standard LNCS":
None at all.
C1. Total cost for the organisor with "Regular IFIP series":
Total price: 151 x 31.52 = 4,759.52 EURO
C2: Royalties to IFIP with "Regular IFIP series":
12 percent of 400 books (list price!): 0.12 x 400 x 100 EURO = 4,800.00 EURO 12 percent of 400 books (bulk price!): 0.12 x 400 x 31.52 EURO = 1,512.96 EURO
Is has been assumed here that all of the 400 produced copies would be sold. I assume that royalty paid would be a mixture of price for bulk sales and for books sold on the free market (whose number could be very near to zero since the normal list price is 125 USD, i.e. approx. 100 EURO, which is outrageously high) and that no rroyalties will be paid for books which have been produced but can nver be sold due to high prices. This needs explanation.
Otto,
I apologize for repeating myself, especially because I cannot join you in Wroclaw next weekend to participate in the debate.
It does not matter what Springer or anyone else charges for books printed on paper and bound in hard covers. It does not matter what Springer or anyone else pays as a royalty to IFIP on sales of these books. Printed books as the records of technical conferences are no longer important (and this has been true for many years now - it is not "news"). Every minute that we spend in TC6 and in IFIP talking about book royalties is wasted, because we should be talking instead about how to support IFIP activities without relying on royalties from the sale of books.
- Lyman
At 1:55 PM +0200 10/21/05, Otto Spaniol wrote:
Dear all,
Guy Leduc informed me that my example has some flaw since "Springer LNCS" will also offer 50 free copies. Thus I have to adopt my calculation example somewhat (see below).
Best regards Otto
Proceedings publication example:
Assumptions: 250 pages; 151 copies taken by the organisor; estimated 400 copies produced in total (out of which are 50 complimentary copies if IFIP LNCS is used).
A1. Total cost for the organisor with "IFIP LNCS":
Organisor pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free. Total price: 101 x 58 = 5,858 EUROA2: Royalties to IFIP with "IFIP LNCS":
10 percent of estimated 350 books: 0.10 x 350 x 58 = 2,030.20 EURO 10 percent of estimated 249 books: 0.10 x 249 x 58 = 1,444.20 EURO The second line would be valid if no royalties would be paid for the bulk copies; which line is the correct one?B1. Total cost for the organisor with "IFIP Regular":
Organisor pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free. Total price: 101 x 42 = 4,242.00 EUROB2: Royalties to IFIP with "IFIP Regular":
None at all.C1. Total cost for the organisor with "Regular IFIP series":
Total price: 151 x 31.52 = 4,759.52 EUROC2: Royalties to IFIP with "Regular IFIP series":
12 percent of 400 books (list price!): 0.12 x 400 x 100 EURO =4,800.00 EURO 12 percent of 400 books (bulk price!): 0.12 x 400 x 31.52 EURO = 1,512.96 EURO
Is has been assumed here that all of the 400 produced copies would besold. I assume that royalty paid would be a mixture of price for bulk sales and for books sold on the free market (whose number could be very near to zero since the normal list price is 125 USD, i.e. approx. 100 EURO, which is outrageously high) and that no rroyalties will be paid for books which have been produced but can nver be sold due to high prices. This needs explanation.
ifip-tc6 mailing list ifip-tc6@lists.RWTH-Aachen.DE http://MailMan.RWTH-Aachen.DE/mailman/listinfo/ifip-tc6
Dear Lyman,
It's a pity that you cannot be with us next week-end. So, let me congratulate you now for the nice job you've done as moderator at ACM SIGCOMM when Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn have delivered their Turing lecture. I've followed this very interesting discussion at midnight at home through the Internet.
This said, I fully agree with you that royalties on paper publications will converge to 0 since (non bulk) proceedings sales will converge to 0, but I'd still like to have clarifications from Springer and IFIP officials on the following points:
1. Royalties on electronic sales (of IFIP papers present in the Springer LINK DL, either in the IFIP LNCS or primary IFIP series)
Based on article 31 of the agreement between IFIP and Springer (especially items b and c), I don't understand clearly how the royalies are paid on electronic sales. I guess there are at least 3 ways to access electronic publications in the Springer DL: (I) by buying electronic articles individually, or (II) by buying a complete electronic book (i.e. the full proceedings), or (III) as part of a flat rate (institutional or individual) annual fee for the whole electronic IFIP series.
Perhaps IFIP gets 2% on (III), gets 12% on the very unlikely (II), and I don't even know if (I) is covered at all.
Besides, we should realize that very few researchers will actually pay for individual electronic articles (or proceedings). They will usually find them on the personal web pages of the authors (via citeseer or Google scholar). Therefore, even these sales will generate marginal royalties I'm afraid. Many institutions have already cancelled their access (completely or partially) to these expensive DLs (like Elsevier or Springer), and some are only considering open access DLs. This trend will continue.
2. Clarifications from Springer are also needed on the following points:
(1) the bulk price of IFIP LNCS: Clearly the list prices of standard LNCS and IFIP LNCS are not the same, but the bulk prices should normally be the same (because there are no royalties on bulk sales).
(2) the discount on bulk sales for both standard and IFIP LNCS: It used to be 45% or more, but the last email from Amy Brais refers to 40%.
(3) the way Springer will estimate the non bulk sales for IFIP LNCS (because royalties are paid on estimated non bulk sales)
(4) the fact that high list prices for the primary IFIP series is very detrimental to the visibility (i.e. sales) of IFIP publications.
Best regards, Guy
At 20:00 -0400 22/10/05, Lyman Chapin wrote:
Otto,
I apologize for repeating myself, especially because I cannot join you in Wroclaw next weekend to participate in the debate.
It does not matter what Springer or anyone else charges for books printed on paper and bound in hard covers. It does not matter what Springer or anyone else pays as a royalty to IFIP on sales of these books. Printed books as the records of technical conferences are no longer important (and this has been true for many years now - it is not "news"). Every minute that we spend in TC6 and in IFIP talking about book royalties is wasted, because we should be talking instead about how to support IFIP activities without relying on royalties from the sale of books.
- Lyman
At 1:55 PM +0200 10/21/05, Otto Spaniol wrote:
Dear all,
Guy Leduc informed me that my example has some flaw since "Springer LNCS" will also offer 50 free copies. Thus I have to adopt my calculation example somewhat (see below).
Best regards Otto
Proceedings publication example:
Assumptions: 250 pages; 151 copies taken by the organisor; estimated 400 copies produced in total (out of which are 50 complimentary copies if IFIP LNCS is used).
A1. Total cost for the organisor with "IFIP LNCS":
Organisor pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free. Total price: 101 x 58 = 5,858 EUROA2: Royalties to IFIP with "IFIP LNCS":
10 percent of estimated 350 books: 0.10 x 350 x 58 = 2,030.20 EURO 10 percent of estimated 249 books: 0.10 x 249 x 58 = 1,444.20 EURO The second line would be valid if noroyalties would be paid for the bulk copies; which line is the correct one?
B1. Total cost for the organisor with "IFIP Regular":
Organisor pays 101 copies, gets 50 for free. Total price: 101 x 42 = 4,242.00 EUROB2: Royalties to IFIP with "IFIP Regular":
None at all.C1. Total cost for the organisor with "Regular IFIP series":
Total price: 151 x 31.52 = 4,759.52 EUROC2: Royalties to IFIP with "Regular IFIP series":
12 percent of 400 books (list price!): 0.12 x 400 x 100 EURO =4,800.00 EURO 12 percent of 400 books (bulk price!): 0.12 x 400 x 31.52 EURO = 1,512.96 EURO
Is has been assumed here that all of the 400 produced copies would besold. I assume that royalty paid would be a mixture of price for bulk sales and for books sold on the free market (whose number could be very near to zero since the normal list price is 125 USD, i.e. approx. 100 EURO, which is outrageously high) and that no rroyalties will be paid for books which have been produced but can nver be sold due to high prices. This needs explanation.
ifip-tc6 mailing list ifip-tc6@lists.RWTH-Aachen.DE http://MailMan.RWTH-Aachen.DE/mailman/listinfo/ifip-tc6
ifip-tc6 mailing list ifip-tc6@lists.RWTH-Aachen.DE http://MailMan.RWTH-Aachen.DE/mailman/listinfo/ifip-tc6
-
Guy Leduc -
Lyman Chapin -
Otto Spaniol