Yahoo's bounce messages AGAIN rc.init file. etc.
I'm back. :( OK, now I'm getting frustrated. I went into rc.init file (you just open it in a text editor, edit it, and ftp it back up, right?) and changed max names to 50 instead of 64. I figured I'd start with a small change and work my way up since I really have NO idea what I'm doing in the first place. I sent our newsletter out this morning after I did this. It shows up in the archive, but it was NOT delivered. Incidentally, ALL of the bounces are arriving in my moderators box and none of them are being removed after ANY number of bounces... I'm having to do it all by hand. I also have to do the unsubbing by hand because every time someone sends an "unsubscribe" email to newsletter-request@glamourgirlsinc.com like they're supposed to, it says they can't be found. When I search the dist file, they're RIGHT THERE every time. Who's dumb here... me or smartlist? <grin> So I sent the newsletter out again tonight. I also BCCed myself to make sure it went out. Well, I got the BCC, but it has not delivered, because I'm not receiving any of the bounce messages in the mod box. It's there in the archive, but it's like it's not getting through to the list. Any suggestions for any of this stuff? LOL I also have no idea how to monitor how the message is being sent out/or IF it is? Thanks a ton, Autumn
At 9:17 PM -0500 12/5/01, B & A is rumored to have typed:
When I search the dist file, they're RIGHT THERE every time. Who's dumb here... me or smartlist? <grin>
(*sigh*) NEVER give me an opening like that again...I promise I won't be able to resist myself... ;) But to be serious, check your dist file _carefully,_ preferably with a un*x editor instead of transfering the file to another OS. There could be a bunch of reasons for some of the symptoms you describe, so check the dist file for anything odd; blank lines anywhere within it, <CR><LF> pairs instead of straight <LF>s, make sure the "(Only addresses below this line can be automatically removed)" line is STILL THERE (removing it is guaranteed to make SmartList decide not to auto-unsubscribe anyone) and generally research the heck out of the dist file. You specifically said:
Incidentally, ALL of the bounces are arriving in my moderators box and none of them are being removed after ANY number of bounces... I'm having to do it all by hand.
...which tells me you've been mucking around manually with your dist file, but you didn't say _how_ you've beem mucking with it, and tranmsfering to a Windoze box and back bunches of times is the fastest way I know of to get stray <CR>s in there. (Un*x uses <LF>, Macs use <CR>, and DOS/Win uses <LF><CR> for line terminators; go figure, they can't even agree on something as simple as this. So <CR>s in a un*x box's text file is a bad thing.) I'm willing to bet a coffee (quad cap, light on the milk) that your dist file is screwed up somehow, in one of the ways mentioned above or some other new and original way I haven't seen yet...and the most common way for it to _get_ screwed it up is the maintainer playing around with it by hand, instead of letting SmartList handle it exclusively, unless s/he knows _exactly_ what s/he's doing. Charlie
Hi Charlie, Thanks for the response. The line (Only addresses below this line can be automatically removed) is still there. Yes, of course I've been "mucking about" in my dist file... if I hadn't, no one would have gotten unsubscribed for the last two months! LOL My dist file is beautiful. No <CR>s that I can see, no empty lines.... of course, I know nothing of this Unix editor of which you speak... (Stop wincing, your face will stay that way!) I really am in desperate need of help. My dist file looks no different than it has for the last two months. My newsletters have gone out faithfully, though nothing else has worked. I'm about ready to give up and find a list host... they're all just so expensive and I like to do these things myself. Trouble is, though I know HTML well, I'm new to this list management thing, and know nothing about Unix. Is there a text editor I can download? I'm really trying to get the hang of this. I apologize greatly for my ignorance. Being blonde is only half of it. <grin> I saved the old rc.init file. I guess I'll go see if I can get it to work with that. But what of this marvel, this wonder, this "Unix editor" of which you speak? Any past and future help is appreciated!!!! :) Autumn ----- Original Message ----- From: Charlie Summers <charlie@lofcom.com> To: B & A <prjctlnk@pacinfo.com>; <Smartlist@Lists.RWTH-Aachen.DE> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 8:36 PM Subject: Re:Yahoo's bounce messages AGAIN rc.init file. etc.
At 9:17 PM -0500 12/5/01, B & A is rumored to have typed:
When I search the dist file, they're RIGHT THERE every time. Who's dumb here... me or smartlist? <grin>
(*sigh*) NEVER give me an opening like that again...I promise I won't be able to resist myself... ;)
But to be serious, check your dist file _carefully,_ preferably with a un*x editor instead of transfering the file to another OS. There could be a bunch of reasons for some of the symptoms you describe, so check the dist file for anything odd; blank lines anywhere within it, <CR><LF> pairs instead of straight <LF>s, make sure the "(Only addresses below this line can be automatically removed)" line is STILL THERE (removing it is guaranteed to make SmartList decide not to auto-unsubscribe anyone) and generally research the heck out of the dist file. You specifically said:
Incidentally, ALL of the bounces are arriving in my moderators box and none of them are being removed after ANY number of bounces... I'm having to do it all by hand.
...which tells me you've been mucking around manually with your dist file, but you didn't say _how_ you've beem mucking with it, and tranmsfering to a Windoze box and back bunches of times is the fastest way I know of to get stray <CR>s in there. (Un*x uses <LF>, Macs use <CR>, and DOS/Win uses <LF><CR> for line terminators; go figure, they can't even agree on something as simple as this. So <CR>s in a un*x box's text file is a bad thing.)
I'm willing to bet a coffee (quad cap, light on the milk) that your dist file is screwed up somehow, in one of the ways mentioned above or some other new and original way I haven't seen yet...and the most common way for it to _get_ screwed it up is the maintainer playing around with it by hand, instead of letting SmartList handle it exclusively, unless s/he knows _exactly_ what s/he's doing.
Charlie
Autumn -- Bear in mind that the characters <CR>, and <LF> ("Carriage Return" and "Line Feed", respectively) are non-printing characters -- even more invisible than a space or a tab -- this means that they probably won't show up in any obvious way when you view the file. "UNIX" is one of several major types of computer operating systems. The three most common operating systems today for microcomputers are DOS/Windows, UN*X and Macintosh. "UNIX" is actually a general name for a range of systems such as Linux, BSD, AIX, HP-UX and so on. SmartList runs under UN*X type systems. A "UNIX editor" is nothing more than a text editing program running on UN*X, or one that can write files out as if it was running on UN*X. You see, text editors tend to save text in the standard format for the platform they're running on. As Charlie mentioned, there are three major ways a line of text can be terminated, UN*X, MAC and DOS. Remember, for this discussion, both <CR> and <LF> are normally non-printing, all they do is tell the display to move to a new place, i.e. beginning of line or next line. So if you type: Hello World on DOS you got: Hello World<CR><LF> On MAC[1] you got: Hello World<CR> And on UN*X you get: Hello World<LF> To the SmartList program, which is all UN*X, that DOS <CR> gums things up. To answer your question, I believe there are programs you can download for DOS/Windoze which will allow you to edit in "UNIX mode." Since I stay as far from Windows as I possibly can, I don't know what a good one would be. Perhaps a google or deja search would help. On another note, please read about delinking files, and consider using rc.custom to make changes, rather than editing your rc.init. Finally, you should know that mailing list systems are designed to be _entirely_ maintained by the use of commands sent to the system *by email*, and "normal" operation (other than initial configuration and such) shouldn't require manual editing of the dist file, etc. I mention this as food for thought, as you re-read the manual and the FAQ. ;-) Pete. FAQ and Manual: http://www.hartzler.net/smartlist/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] I don't know whether Mac OS-X, which is basically UN*X, follows the old MAC line termination style or the UN*X standard. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, B & A wrote: ...
My dist file is beautiful. No <CR>s that I can see, no empty lines.... of course, I know nothing of this Unix editor of which you speak...
...
I'm new to this list management thing, and know nothing about Unix. Is there a text editor I can download? ...
At 1:00 AM -0500 12/6/01, B & A is rumored to have typed:
Thanks for the response. The line (Only addresses below this line can be automatically removed) is still there. Yes, of course I've been "mucking about" in my dist file... if I hadn't, no one would have gotten unsubscribed for the last two months! LOL
That's not necessarily true, and it sure as heck ain't funny. Did you try using X-Commands? Do they work? Do you know what an X-Command _is?_
My dist file is beautiful.
With the possible expection that SmartList isn't mailing anything out to it...
No <CR>s that I can see, no empty lines.... of course, I know nothing of this Unix editor of which you speak... (Stop wincing, your face will stay that way!)
How are you viewing your dist file? You _really_ need to give some specific information before anyone can help you. (And pay attention to Peter's letter; he was smart enough to realize that you didn't understand what I was talking about when I talked about line feeds and carriage returns. My bad, not your, I should have explained it better and not assumed you'd understand.) But you _do_ need to start taking this seriously.
My newsletters have gone out faithfully, though nothing else has worked.
(*sigh*) That's like saying, "I have this tumor on my arm, but I can still walk, so everything's fine." Anytime you have a quantifiable problem, you are asking for trouble if you don't fix it. These things can cascade, especially when you try to "fix" the symptoms without understanding the underlying problem.
I'm about ready to give up and find a list host... they're all just so expensive and I like to do these things myself.
They aren't _all_ that terribly expensive, and forgive me for being blunt in suggesting that you may not be _ready_ to do _this_ thing yourself. I'm not suggesting you give up, but I _am_ telling you that you need to be prepared to make an investment in learing how this all works if you plan on fixing it, even _with_ our help. You need to learn enough so we can speak the same language...we'll help you all we can, but _you_ have to learn it.
Trouble is, though I know HTML well, I'm new to this list management thing, and know nothing about Unix.
THIS is the problem. Never mess around with internals until you know what you're doing.
Is there a text editor I can download? I'm really trying to get the hang of this. I apologize greatly for my ignorance. Being blonde is only half of it. <grin>
For WHAT OPERATING SYSTEM? Look, all I know for sure about you is that you are sending your email to the list using Windows (I can tell that by the X-Mailer header field.) I don't know whether you root the box that SmartList is on (although I'm placing a whole lot of money that you aren't and are paying a few bucks/month for a shared machine), and I sure don't know how you're looking at the files (although I'm betting you're either using some web-based thingie or FTPing the files into your Windoze machine). You need to help us out a little bit.
I saved the old rc.init file. I guess I'll go see if I can get it to work with that. But what of this marvel, this wonder, this "Unix editor" of which you speak?
I'm with Peter here - what the devil are you doing messing around with your rc.init? Now we have to deal with debugging possible screwups in your rc.init file as well as the dist file. Let's all sit down, take a few deep breaths, and relax. The first thing we're going to do is decide NOT to try sending anything else through your list until the problem is fixed. Second thing we're going to decide is that you're NOT going toi muck around with anything else in any fashion whatsoever until we figure out where you _are_ and how to get you back to where you're going. Now we need to deal _seriously_ with the problem - let's start by you carefully detailing _exactly_ what you're doing and how. Start with how SmartList is set up (on a machine you operate, a leased machine you control, or a shared "virtual hosting" machine, a friend's machine, etc., etc.), what software you are currently using to view or edit the files AND ON WHAT MACHINE (the machine that's running Smartlist? your desk machine? a modem-based typewritter?), whether or not you have telnet/SSH access to a command line on the machine running SmartList (if you don't know what that means, we'll assume you don't), exactly how you routinely access the machine that's hosting your SmartLIst install, that kind of thing. Be specific (you obviously don't need to give us login passwords, the IP of the machine, and the like, but we DO need to know what the heck you're doing before we can tell you what not to do anymore), and don't leave anything out no matter how insignificant it might be to you. There are a gadzillion different ways of doing things, but only one way that _you_ do things, and we need to know how you do it before we can do any more than guess how to undo the problem. Charlie (who also suggests you stop top-posting, and including the entire message to which you reply)
Peter, Thankyou for your explanations and your patience. I understand the terminations now, and how my dist file can be corrupt without my being able to see it. Charlie, I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to help. But why you feel the need to spend five paragraphs chastising me for doing things wrong when I obviously _don't_know what I'm doing or I wouldn't be asking for help in the first place is beyond me. My intention was not to cause you or anyone else frustration. I wasn't being NOT serious... I was simply trying to learn something new and having a pleasant demeanor while doing it (when that became a crime, I don't know?). I was joking because I'm frustrated and I was being humorously apolgetic because I really didn't want to *bother* anyone, but I don't know where else to turn. Sine humor doesn't seem to go over well around here, let's get down to business. YES, I know I'm doing things wrong. NO, I don't particularly want to deal with this but I've gotten quotes for $350 - $1750 for hosting my mailing list. I send A LOT of mail.... 326,000 pieces at 17k each in a month, to be exact. I don't know how much money you make but in my book that isn't cheap. SmartList is set up on a virtual shared server. I don't have SSH access because I don't even know what that is. I could, I suppose, but I don't even know hw to go about it. What would it look like were I in it? A text editor? Something completely foreign to me? I don't even know... I am editing the files with Wordpad afterI have FTPed them (yes, I know that's WRONG now!) to my Windows 98 SE machine. I can access the smartlist through a really crappy web interface that my hosting company provides, but nothing (meaning the unsubbing) worked properly when I did so I stopped using it and started trying to do it manually, through FTP and WordPad. Obviously that was not the thing to do and now I know that (can we please not reiterate that for the thirtieth time since I already feel like an idiot?). So is this something that I can do relatively easily, once I get telnet access? My server says something about sending in my drivers license photo and then being able to use my "key"? If this is all too much, I found a cgi mailing list program called "MailSupply" that seems to be much more user-friendly to someone like me who doesn't have any formal training in list management. Perhaps I should go that route. Smartlist only claims to be able to handle, what... 90,000 subscribers? Our list is growing so fast we'll be past that in no time. Again, being new to this I really don't know, but I'm sure I'll learn it one way or another. Thanks again to both of you, Autumn
Hi, I haven't read this entire thread so I apologize in advance if I'm offbase here, but I thought I'd mention a couple things as you are new to SmartList. On Thu, 6 Dec 2001, B & A wrote:
Charlie,
I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to help. But why you feel the need to spend five paragraphs chastising me for doing things wrong when I
I've been subscribed to this list since at least 1994. Be happy, the list used to be populated with many Charlies at once!;)
business. YES, I know I'm doing things wrong. NO, I don't particularly want to deal with this but I've gotten quotes for $350 - $1750 for hosting my mailing list. I send A LOT of mail.... 326,000 pieces at 17k each in a month, to be exact. I don't know how much money you make but in my book that isn't cheap.
To be honest, SmartList isn't your best choice for a mailing list that size. You will be inundated with all sorts of daemon messages in your mailbox regarding things like 'message undelivered after 4 hours, will keep trying the 5 days', etc. All stuff that requires you to read but there is nothing you can do about it. Also, SmartList out of the box uses Sendmail which will just choke and provide you endless troubles unless you are just delivering individual emails. And generally speaking, SmartList does not work out of the box as advertized. The bounced email unsubscribe routine only works under very strict circumstances, your email box will be regularly filled with bouncing email addresses you will have to remove by hand...the list goes on. SmartList is good if you are a hacker and like to fix it and otherwise customize it to suit your needs, it is not an install and go kind of solution for anything. I have hacked my SmartList to be suitable for situations like yours and have the bandwidth, but bandwidth is not cheap as well as keeping servers up 24X7. Good luck, --Paul T. Cueman --
Paul, Thanks much for your honest feedback. I am trying to convince my server that perhaps SmartList isn't the best choice, but they don't want to admit it. It's free... I'm sure that has something to do with their decision. What are your thoughts on Majordomo? I may have the opportunity to go with a host who runs that as a list server. Also, they have MailSupply, which is CGI based and seems like a pretty good program? As for auto unsubbing, I used X-Command to try to process an unsub request. I got the following message. This is getting really embarrassing, because everyone who tries to unsub CAN'T. Even when I try to administrate the list through X-Command, it doesn't work. Trouble is, if I try numerous times, the responses are constantly sent to the recipient and they're going to get even MORE angry. You say I have to process the bounces by hand. But I have been, and I got chewed out for it! Until there's a better solution, can you explain to me how I can limp this thing along well enough to get by, and how I can unsub people and remove bounces by hand without bringing an end to civilization as we know it? If I need to download a Unix editor, fine. I'd be happy to. But apparently I don't have telnet access so what good does that do me? Thanks again! Autumn Date: Thursday, 6 December 2001 17:10:03 -0500 To: MoToXeRTTR125L@cs.com Subject: Re: unsubscribe MoToXeRTTR125L@cs.com From: newsletter-request@glamourgirlsinc.com [Show all headers] [Printer-friendly version] You have not been removed, I couldn't find your name on the list. If this wasn't your intention or you are having problems getting yourself unsubscribed, reply to this mail now (quoting it entirely (for diagnostic purposes), and of course adding any comments you see fit). Transcript of unsubscription request follows: --
From MoToXeRTTR125L@cs.com From: newsletter-request@glamourgirlsinc.com Reply-To: MoToXeRTTR125L@cs.com To: newsletter-request@glamourgirlsinc.com Subject: unsubscribe MoToXeRTTR125L@cs.com
participants (4)
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B & A -
Charlie Summers -
Paul Thomas -
Peter Hartzler