** Reply to message from Charlie Summers <charlie@lofcom.com> on Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:38:41 -0500
At 7:14 AM -0500 11/15/01, Stan Goodman is rumored to have typed:
Whether or not it is a very common format for patches in the Unix world, it is shameful, nothing less, in 2001 for software which is intended for use by non-programmers to require this kind of "tighten this bolt, loosen that one" maintenance.
I'm sorry...who was it that ever suggested that SmartList was designed to be used by non-programmers? I don't remember reading anywhere any of the developers suggesting that. (I also don't remember them suggesting that it wasn't, either.)
Nobody has said either. The fact that it is necessary to deal with Perl scripts in order to use the package effectively speaks for itself.
There is no reason at all why Smartlist should not be controllable by an intuitive interface requiring no knowledge of Unix incantations.
I disagree.
You are, then, a Unix-knowledgeable person (more power to you).
If you want something that doesn't require a little knowledge, something that does all of your thinking for you, there are _many_ commercial packages
How I wish I were the owner of a server on which I could install one. Unhappily I am not. As it is, I have to rely on a hosting service and the choices its management has made. I have said before that I use Smart List because it is forced on me, not because I like it.
on the market available to you that require no particular knowledge to operate. If, on the other hand, you are interested in using an open-source package that costs you nothing but perhaps a little time spent in understanding unix and procmail, SmartList is a great choice in my opinion. But you can't have it both ways...either invest some money, or invest some time.
Like most people, I try to make the best use of my time. If Unix were the center of my life, I would devote lots of time to understanding it and the languages used on it.
To expect the developers to provide a commercial-level package, one designed for use by those who don't know how to use as simple a tool as patch or who do not have shell access to the machine, without financial renumeration is absurd. There's no _reason_ for SmartList to be controlled by
Do you read this stuff after you write it?
a web-based interface, since there are commercial packages to do just that. The only people who insist on doing so are hosting companies who advertise, "Mailing List Software Included!" when including software they do not need to pay to license, and then refuse to support the add-on nonsense, shunting off their support costs to this mailing list. (Most of us, who actually installed SmartList, are then at a loss to help these poor souls, although even without using it I'm beginning to get a handle on how the installation is set up and works, including the existance of the ./bin and ./etc directories.)
Those directories are not available to people in the position I have described above (tenants on hosting servers). It is absurd to base operating options on access to inaccessible directories.
Bottom line: if you're using free software, you need to invest some time in the learning curve. Either do so, or buy something that doesn't require it.
Again, you have it stuck in your mind that I have a server on which I can install a list manager. I don't. If I did, I would install something else.
The developers continue work on SmartList because...heck, after reading postings like yours, I honestly don't know why they bother, I'm just thrilled
They don't.
that they do. They give away their time and labor receiving little back but frustration and annoyance, asking only that their users understand they need to make a small investment in time.
Each user should invest time in order to compensate for the time not invested by the developers in making a more helpful interface. At least an integrated interface that doesn't consist of an array of separate scripts.
You may have the last word on this issue, should you choose, since I will not waste the list's time further with the obvious.
Ah! We are getting somewhere. -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel